...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
В последнее время произошли 2 вещи:
- перенесен выпуск гиперион-пластинки
- случился плохой концерт в Дубае
Эти события стали поводом для суровой критики со стороны фанатов, чаша терпения которых переполнилась, и они открыли огонь по всем фронтам, выходящий далеко за пределы концерта и пластинки.
Это совершенно нормально и показывает ваше небезразличное отношение.
Будет неправильно, если команда t.A.T.u. в моем лице оставит без внимания все то, о чем вы написали на форуме.
Кстати, в своих комментах, пожалуйста, соблюдайте законы жанра и не обращайтесь к Ренскому или Воеводиной. Это блог Инсайдера, а не какого-то конкретного человека. И когда некоторые из вас пишут: "...о, в этом посте не было злобных нападок на фэнов, значит, его писал точно не Ренский...", они ошибаются, поверьте на слово. Если Ренский, Воеводина или Jam One захотят написать от своего имени, то они и подпишут пост своим именем.
Я бы хотел систематизировать темы вашей критики/дискуссии и заодно изложить свои мысли.
Прошу простить, если где-то повторно проскочит уже высказанное в моих более ранних постах.
Итак, на какие топики я бы разделил все это море:
- плохой концерт, нет шоу
- перенос пластинки
- разогнать менеджмент во главе с Ренским
- проект t.A.T.u. должен был закрыться после первой пластинки, осталась бы легенда
- хватит текстов с лапками и хвостиками
плохой концерт, нет шоу
Концерт в Арабских Эмиратах мне резко не понравился.
Я согласен со всей критикой и мог бы еще добавить.
Да, энергии было ноль, глаза были пустые, одежда действительно такая, как будто они случайно на сцену забрели из овощного магазина за углом.
Все так.
Оправдываться - НИКОГДА.
Наверное, девчонки очень плохо себя чувствовали, что конечно их не извиняет. Профессионал при любых обстоятельствах, ВСЕГДА работает не ниже какого-то определенного высокого уровня, даже если он при смерти, а в зале вместо зрителей гуляет ветер.
Юля и Лена прекрасно знают этот закон профессионала.
Это был срыв, простим их (я знаю точно, что девчонки прочитали все, что вы написали).
Я был на концерте Мадонны в Лужниках позапрошлым летом, стоял в партере близко к сцене и все хорошо видел...
Глаза были пустыми, Мадонна по большей части двигалась вяло...
Красивое шоу, не в пример нашему никакому, все равно не заменяло плохую работу артистки.
Как говорится, shit happens... даже у Мадонны.
Теперь о шоу.
Неужели вы думаете, что мы все, кто работает с t.A.T.u., и сами певицы считаем, что то, что происходит на сцене, есть шоу? На сегодняшний день тема шоу - это наша болезненная кровоточащая рана.
Конечно, мы все прекрасно понимаем, что t.A.T.u. - это не симфонический оркестр, где единственная ценность - это качество музыки и красота звука, и не хард-рок бэнд, где главное - это водопад энергетики, исходящий от музыкантов.
t.A.T.u. - это прежде всего шоу-бэнд, где каждая песня - спектакль, где должно быть море нереального света, экран, на котором происходят потрясающие вещи, невиданные спец эффекты, специальная хореография для солисток, музыкантов (да, да и для музыкантов) и для бэк вокала. Кто бы что ни говорил, но для большого шоу с живым звуком нужен живой бэк-вокал, а не записанные на магнитофон бэк-треки.
Скажу больше, сценарий такого шоу для t.A.T.u. уже написан. Когда я его читаю, у меня мурашки по спине бегают. Сет-лист из песен 3-х альбомов уже составлен.
Дело осталось за малым: начать и закончить продакшн, все отрепетировать и вперед с песнями.
Никому не надо объяснять, что это немаленькая и недешевая работа, в которой участвует много народу.
Ничего не буду говорить о сроках, но вещи уже делаются.
перенос гиперион-пластинки
Здесь все довольно просто.
Очень хотели сделать раньше, недооценили физически возможные сроки, опрометчиво объявили - и не успели. обосрались. Мы действительно никогда раньше сами не выпускали пластинки, и работа, которая сейчас близка к завершению, все время подготовки релиза ведется интенсивно.
Это называется плохое администрирование. Разумеется, Юля с Леной здесь не при чем, не царское это дело.
Поставим за задержку Ренскому заслуженные 2 балла, никто не требовал под дулом пистолета немедленного объявления сроков.
разогнать менеджмент во главе с Ренским
Не правы те, кто говорит, что от старых t.A.T.u. остались только Юля и Лена и мы не знаем, кто такой Ренский и откуда он взялся, прихватив себе чужое добро и все такое...
Борис был с самого начала, даже в некотором смысле до Шаповалова, но об этом я подробно напишу в продолжении "подлинной истории", когда руки дойдут.
Старые же фанаты знают о роли в проекте "компьютерного воротилы" из многочисленных интервью Ивана: "...я все сделал, пришел к одному бизнесмену, который дал 35 тысяч долларов на клип "Я сошла с ума", вот так и получилось t.A.T.u.". Оставим пока эту версию на совести ее автора.
Замечу лишь одно: всемирно известных чудес за 35 тысяч + ИШ не случается, и t.A.T.u. задолго до видео ЯССУ был уже с отрывом самым высокобюджетным отечественным шоу проектом на тот момент (не считая Большого Театра, хора Пятницкого и Краснознаменного ансамбля песни и пляски).
Ренский же никаких интервью не давал и ничего не опровергал.
Если же говорить о роли команды в жизни любого значимого артиста, то артист и его команда или, если хотите, "менеджмент" - это всегда одно целое, независимо от того, пишет фронтмен музыку и стихи сам или нет.
Поэтому разрыв с творческой командой - это всегда тяжелая драма, которую переживают немногие.
Разрыв с Шаповаловым едва не стоил t.A.T.u. жизни, и пожелания тех форумцев, которые считают, что t.A.T.u. надо было прикрыть в 2004 году, были очень близки к актуализации.
Когда человек пишет: "Надо выгнать менеджмент, нанять нормальных профессионалов из лейбла, и все будет супер", он обнаруживает свое глубокое непонимание того, как все это работает.
Ничего супер не будет и никогда не было в истории, а вот разрывы/разводы с рекорд-компаниями происходят повсеместно.
Во-первых, лэйбл - это не команда артиста, а внешняя организация, интересы которой могут не совпадать с интересами артиста, а часто даже входить в полное противоречие.
Ближайшие примеры: отмененный релиз сингла D&M, замена его на FOF, выход сингла и видео Gomenasai... могу продолжать долго.
Во-вторых, выгнать команду/менеджмент - не то же самое, что сменить старые джинсы или ботинки.
И те из вас, которые предлагают подобное, не понимают, что это приведет к потере аутентичности t.A.T.u., что практически равнозначно предложению выгнать самих Юлю и Лену и взять других певиц.
Так что, нравится менеджмент или не нравится, всем тем, кто не хочет безвременной кончины t.A.T.u., придется смириться и с командой со всеми ее недостатками, включая главный недостаток - Бориса Ренского.
проект Тату должен был закрыться после первой пластинки, осталась бы легенда
Осталась бы, прямо скажем, слабоватая легенда, как о проекте одной песни (ну 2-х), и все.
Таких легенд в мире музыки предостаточно. Выстрелила группа один раз на весь мир и гуд бай май лав.
Перечислять их можно много, попробуйте сами.
А вот остаться после оглушительного успеха, не сдохнуть, не оказаться на помойке музыкальной индустрии, не переродиться в дешевку - это действительно удается единицам в истории.
Как же фэны старых t.A.T.u. не хотят понять и принять, что группа не предавала их, не обманывала, прекратив показывать under age лейсбийскую любовь на сцене.
Да, образ Лены и Юли включал в себя прозрачный намек, на то, что они реальные лесбиянки. Это была часть сценария и игры, необходимая для усиления эффекта достоверности. Но мне кажется, взрыв произошел по другой причине - в силу своего юного возраста девчонки порой забывали о сценарии и теряли ощущение границы. Игра и жизнь перемешивались, и на сцену выливались подлинные, ненаигранные эмоции, поцелуи, объятья. И это-то и свело всех с ума. Я склоняюсь к мысли, что игра была не в чистом виде.
И темнее менее, даже такая полу-игра - не обман народа. Эти образы вдохновили многих людей, дали им глоток свежего воздуха, передавали призыв не бояться, не думать, что ты хуже других, если любишь человека того же пола. Ведь вам не придет в голову возненавидеть и обвинить в предательстве Ал Пачино за то, что он сыграл роль дьявола, таковым не являясь.
В этом и состоит великая сила искусства.
А если смотреть шире, то это вообще о свободе всех людей и против угнетения по любым причинам и признакам.
И пластинка "Люди Инвалиды" - никакая не попытка отречься от прошлого, умничать или выпендриваться, а логическое продолжение все той же "200 по встречной", но только с более сложным, метафорическим языком и, соответственно, с другой, более сложной музыкой.
Но не могут Юля и Лена, повзрослевшие и исчерпавшие образы первого альбома, бесконечно выходить в школьной форме и петь только ЯССУ и ННД.
НЕ МОГУТ, и никто бы не смог.
Также они никому не обязаны по этой причине отказываться от названия группы или все прикрывать для сохранения легенды или в знак любви к Ивану Шаповалову, который застрял на достигнутом успехе и не пожелал/не мог двигаться дальше.
Предлагаю людям, высказавшимся в этом духе, подумать глубже и пересмотреть свой взгляд на вещи.
Артисты работают, пока им есть, что сказать, и пока есть люди, которые хотят это слышать и видеть.
Я не разделяю мнение девчонок о том, что 1-ый альбом был попсовым в плохом смысле и все такое... Мне кажется, что они на самом деле даже так не думают, а просто слегка кокетничают, ведь они вложили в этот альбом так много сил и души.
Да, он был достаточно легким и по музыке и по стихам, да, там есть песни, которых, на мой взгляд, могло бы и не быть, но и во 2-ом такие тоже есть.
Может в 3-ем не будет?
Я считаю "200 по встречной" шедевральным изделием с заслуженным мировым резонансом. Но из этого не следует, что "ЛИ"/"D&M" и все последующие - говно, а t.A.T.u. надо закрывать...
Плавно переходим к последнему топику.
хватит текстов с лапками и хвостиками
Вот в этом месте я повторю с некоторыми вариациями то, что у меня уже было раньше.
Сначала небольшое отступление.
Я вообще не согласен со стэйтментом в отношении произведения искусства "я этого не понимаю".
Искусство - это не физика и математика, для его восприятия не нужны специальные знания и опыт, его понимают ВСЕ, но каждый по-своему.
В этом и состоит одна из главных прелестей искусства: оно существует только в субъективном восприятии каждого конкретного зрителя/слушателя/читателя.
Если человеку кажется, что он не понимает, то это означает, что его не цепляет, другими словами - ему не нравится, и он имеет на это полное право.
Все остальное давайте оставим профессиональным критикам, которые зарабатывают на жизнь классификациями и объяснениями, какое произведение является шедевром, а какое...
Стихи t.A.T.u. такие, какие они есть. Разумеется, как и все в природе, всех они устраивать не могут и не должны.
Пожалуйста, не распинайте лапки и хвостики утверждениями, что это тупо и убого и т.д.
Просто скажите, что вам НЕ НРАВИТСЯ, и все поймут.
Инсайдер
P.S. plass писал(а):
У меня есть знакомая, которая где-то месяцок назад будучи на 2хнедельном сроке пришла ко мне в гости, мы просто пили чай болтали, комп шарили, отговаривать ее от оборта я уже и не пытался-без толку, я вдруг решил ей показать БП, заранее объяснил, что клип против оборта, что звонок в конце - это как бы девушка сделав оборт потом жалеет. Ну посморела она клип, сказала что очень жестокий и с непонятным лицом почти сразу ушла домой. Пришла на следующий день, попросила показать ей есче раз клип. Потом я ее долго не видел. А вот на той неделе я встретил ее с округлившимся животиком.
И я не могу описать те ощущения, какие я испытал. Я не могу говорить, что именно клип повлиял на нее, сто пудово там было полно других факторов, которые влияли совместно с клипом. С того дня я захожу на сайт с чувством гордости за татушек и за себя)))))
Я прочитал это и вздрогнул.
Представьте себе, люди, что клип БП - это сон, который видит неродившийся ребенок в утробе матери, чувствующий, что его собираются абортировать...
Я придумал идею и сценарий, но такая возможная трактовка до сегодняшнего дня мне в голову не приходила.
И еще, если t.A.T.u. своим плащем помогли спасти жизнь этого человека, о котором пишет plass, то миссия группы на планете Земля выполнена - как говорится, mission accomplished.
Можно уходить на пенсию J
2 things occurred lately:
- release of the hyperion-plate was delayed;
- bad concert happened in Dubai.
These events triggered the severe criticism from fans whose cup ran over, and they opened fire in all directions, even far away from the plate and the concert.
This is quite normal and shows that you care.
It would be incorrect for t.A.T.u. team impersonated in me to leave all the things you said in forum without attention.
By the way, obey the laws of a genre in your comments and do not address to Renski or Voevodina. This is Insider's blog, not some real person's. And wrong are those of you writing words like: "...oh, there wasn't spiteful mocking of fans in that post, so it was not written by Renski for sure...", believe me. In case Renski, Voevodina, or Jam One come to a wish to write a post from their own name - they would sign such a post with their own name.
I would like to systematize all the topics of your criticism/discussion and to expose my thought at the same time.
I beg your pardon for some possible repetitions of matters previously written in the above posts of mine.
So, the topics I would split all that sea-of-criticism to are:
- bad concert, absence of show;
- delay of the plate;
- move the management headed by Renski elsewhere;
- t.A.T.u. project should have been discontinued after the first album, so we would have a beautiful legend uncompromised;
- no more zoo lyrics with "paws" and "tails", it's enough of these.
bad concert, absence of show
I strictly disliked the concert in UAE.
I agree with all the criticism, and I could add more to it myself.
Yes, the energy was at 0, eyes were empty, clothes were really like ones as if they walked onto the stage occasionally from a grocery store round the corner.
All correct.
Offer excuses - NEVER.
Girls were probably feeling terrible, what does not excuse them much.
A professional MUST always, under any circumstances, work not below some definitely high level, even if he is close to death, and the lone wind occupies the venue instead of audience.
Yulia and Lena do clearly know this Law Of Professional.
It was a failure, forgive them (I know for sure that girls have read everything you wrote).
I was at Madonna's concert in Moscow in 2006, standing on the floor near the stage, and I saw everything quite well...
With her eyes being empty Madonna did behave stagnant, mostly...
Beautiful show, unlike null-and-void ours, was still unable to fill in all the gaps of low-level work of the artist.
As they say, "shit happens"... even to Madonna.
Now about our show.
Do you really think all of us working with t.A.T.u. together with singers themselves believe that things going on the stage are "show"? Nowadays the subject of show is a painful raw wound to us.
Of course, we all do clearly understand that t.A.T.u. is not a symphonic orchestra with the quality of music and beauty of sound being its only value, and not a hard-rock band with its respective value in a waterfall of energy emitted by musicians.
t.A.T.u. is first of all a show-band where every song should be a stage play with an ocean of unreal light, with screens displaying stunning imagery, with impossible special effects, with unique choreography for soloists, musicians (yes, yes, for musicians too) and for back-vocals. No matter what they say, the big show with live sound needs live back-vocals, not back-tracks played from some tape-recorder.
To tell you more, the script of such show for t.A.T.u. is written already. Reading this script sends me shivers up and down. The set-list of songs of three albums is already composed.
Just one thing is lacking: to start and to finish the production, to rehearse it all, and then - ahead, singing.
There's hardly any need to explain this is a rather big and costly work, requiring participation of lots of people.
I won't say a word about timing, but things are already being done.
delay of the hyperion-plate
This is quite easy.
We wanted to make it quickly very much, underestimated physically possible time, rashly announced it - and didn't succeed, shit out of luck. We really haven't ever made CDs ourselves before, and the work that is now close to conclusion is being done intensely all these months.
That's what is called bad administrating. Naturally, Yulia and Lena have nothing to do with this, that's below them.
So let's give Renski his deserved mark "F" for the delay. Nobody demanded to tell exact schedule immediately at a gun point.
to move the management headed by Renski elsewhere
Wrong are those saying "Yulia and Lena are everything that's left of t.A.T.u., and we don't know who is Renski and where he jumped from, grabbing other people's property" and all that...
Boris was there from the very beginning, even before Shapovalov, in some sense, but these are the things I'm going to tell you later in a "true story", when I get enough of time.
Old fans got the info about "computer tycoon's" role in the project from Ivan's interviews: "...I've made it all, and I came to one businessman who gave me $35000 for the Ya Soshla S Uma music video, and that's how t.A.T.u. began". Let's leave this story lying at the door of its author for a while.
One note: world-wide known wonders do not happen for $35000 + ISh, and t.A.T.u. had been the most high-budget show-project of the country long before the YSSU video, with others far behind at the moment (excluding Bolshoi Theater, The Pyatnitsky Chorus, and the army's Red Banner Ensemble of Song and Dance).
Renski used to give no interview, and didn't deny anything.
Talking about the role of staff in a life of any significant artist you should keep in mind that an artist and his staff (or "management" if you prefer) are one, regardless of fact if a front-man composes music and lyrics himself or not.
Therefore, a break with a creative team is always a heavy drama, not many artists can survive.
The break with Shapovalov had nearly cost t.A.T.u. its life, and wishes of our forum-members saying that t.A.T.u. should have been closed back in 2004 were very close to actualization.
When a man says: "They're ought to get rid of the management, hire good professionals from a label, and everything will be super", he shows his deep misunderstanding of how all this works.
Nothing will be "super", and never was so in history, but breaks and "divorces" with record-companies do happen every now and then.
First - label is not an artist's team, it is a "foreign" organization, whose interests may differ from artist's, and even may come into total contradiction.
Easiest examples: cancelled release of D&M single, replacing it to FOF, release of single & video Gomenasai... I can go on and on.
Second - to firing the staff/management is not similar to changing old jeans or shoes.
Those of you proposing such ideas do not understand that this will lead to the loss of t.A.T.u. authenticity, and practically equal to a proposal to fire Yulia and Lena themselves, and to hire other singers.
So, whether you like the management or not, each and everyone of you who do not wish the timeless end for t.A.T.u. are ought to put up with the staff and all its flaws, including the one major flaw - Boris Renski.
t.A.T.u. project should have been discontinued after the first album, leaving a legend
This resulting legend would have been, to say it straight, a rather weak one. A legend of project with one song (OK, 2 songs), and that's all.
The world of music is full of such legends. A group makes it to stars all over the world just once, and then - "good bye, my love".
Groups of this sort are countless, try counting ‘em yourself.
On the contrary, to stay intact after the stunning success, to keep alive, not to get left in a disposal dump of music industry, not to mutate into some cheap cheesiness - that is the task not many managed to solve in history.
How does it come the fans of old t.A.T.u. are unwilling to understand and to accept the fact that the group have neither betrayed nor cheated them when they stopped to show underage lesbian love on stage.
Yes, Lena's and Yulia's image did include a broad hint they are real lesbians. It was an integral part of the script and of the play, necessary to amplify the effect of reality. But I think that "explosion" happened for another reason - due to their young age girls used to forget about any scripts and to loose the sense of scope from time to time. The play and the life then used to mix, and the stage would have been flooded with true but not played emotions, kisses and hugs. It was that effect what drove everybody crazy. I tend to believe the play was not just a mere game.
Nevertheless, even such a half-play was not a solid "smoke and mirrors". Those images had inspired lots of people, gave them a breath of fresh air, gave them a call to overcome their fears, to stop thinking they are worse than others if they love a person of the same sex. Wouldn't you intend to start hating Al Pachino and accuse him of betrayal for a reason he played the role of the devil while not being the one.
It is the great power of art.
Thinking globally, our art was about freedom of all people and against any kind of oppression for whatever reasons and by whichever attributes.
Nothing has CD "Lyudi Invalidy"/D&M to do with any sort of attempt to renounce the past, to pretend smart-ass or to put on lugs. It was a logical continuance of the same "200 Po Vstrechnoi", but with another language of more complicated metaphors, accompanied with the different and more complex music, accordingly.
It is unacceptable for Yulia and Lena, who have grown up and exhausted the images of the first album, to infinitely go performing dressed in school outfits, and to sing ATTSS and NGGU only.
THEY CAN'T, and nobody could.
Also, for the aforementioned reasons, they are not obliged to anyone to abandon the group's name or to shut everything down, in order to save the legend or in testimony of love to Ivan Shapovalov who had stuck in the achieved success unwilling/unable to go further.
I suggest those of you who spoke in this manner to think deeper and to reconsider your point of view.
Artists work till they have something to say, and till exist people who want to listen to it and to see it.
I do not share the girls' opinion that the first album was pops [in commonly negative meaning] and all that... I assume they do not mean it, just kidding some little bit, because they had put so much of their energy and soul into it.
Yes, it was easy-listening, with "light" music and lyrics, yes there're several songs that could have absent, but the second album has got this kind of songs either.
Maybe there won't be such in the third?
I believe "200 Po Vstrechnoi" to be the outstanding masterpiece with deserved world-wide resonance. But it doesn't imply that "LI"/"D&M" and all succeeding albums are shit and t.A.T.u. are subject to shutdown...
Moving smoothly to the last topic.
no more zoo lyrics with "paws" and "tails", it's enough of these
This is the place where I am going to repeat some of my previous words with a slight modification.
At first, a little step aside.
I am positively not going to agree with a statement "I don't understand it" in application to a work of art.
Art is not physics or mathematics, it doesn't require special knowledge or experience, EVERYONE can understand it, but every one in one's own way.
This is where one of the major charms of art resides: the art exists solely in subjective perception of the certain viewer/listener/reader.
If a man thinks he does not understand - it means he's not caught by the idea, in other words - he doesn't like it, and he really does have the right to dislike.
Let's leave all the rest to professional critics who live off classifications and explanations of which work is a masterpiece and which is...
The lyrics of t.A.T.u. are what it is. Surely, as everything in the nature they can't satisfy everybody. And they needn't.
Please, don't waste the time managing your paws and tails to write allegations like all this is dull, stupid, null & void.
Just tell that YOU DISLIKE IT, and everyone will understand you.
Insider
P.S. plass wrote:
I've got an acquaintance, who visited me about a month ago being 2 weeks pregnant, we drank tea, talked, mined PC, I didn't even think of talking her out of doing abortion - it was obviously useless, but suddenly I decided to show her BP, explaining in advance that the clip is against abortion, that the final ring kinda means that girl who made abortion regrets afterwards. So, she watched the clip, said it's a lot cruel, and went home soon after, with some strange face. She came the next day, asked to show her the clip once again. Than I didn't see her for a long time. And last week I met her with a rounded tummy.
And I can't explain the feelings I had. I can't say that it was the clip that changed her mind, lots of other factors surely should have been there working together with the clip. Since that day I come to the site feeling proud for tatugirls and for myself)))))
I read these words and shuddered.
Imagine, people, that BP video - it's a dream seen by a not yet born baby in a womb, who feels he's about to get aborted...
I composed the idea and the script, but I could not imagine the possibility of such an interpretation until this day.
And one more thing - if t.A.T.u. with their robe helped to save the life of that human plass writes about, then the group's mission on planet Earth is accomplished.
We can retire now J
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Buka Re: Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
Even if she did have one in the past, people change their minds. I used to be super religious and a tad homophobic. Now I am with someone of the same gender (and not self-hating). Depending on your outlook, that can make me a hypocrit or just someone whose mind changed.
Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
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For me, this is your Best post Insider.
There is here a part of sincerity which is courageous and touching.
I had to say that the Taty's Team has improved a lot about the communication with the Fans these last times: at least, you warn the fans in a polite way when a gig is canceled, now....
It wasn't always the case... ;)
Thanks too to have given your version about the "Lena's and Yulia's image"...even if it could have been done before..and if I have really some big problems to imagine that you had no power at all to "correct" the "behavior" of your young singers...(but it's just my point of view... Translation: I have the feeling that you had some profits in the prolongation of this "scandal"..;))...
About abortion...sorry, but like a lot of other fans, I'm still really shocked by a such choice...
Abortion didn't appear with the vote of a Law in some countries.
It has always existed. The difference is that before it was made in underground, awful conditions. And sometimes, it wasn't 1 but 2 people who died: the Baby and its Mother.
So...I really feel that it's a very Personal Decision specific to each woman..
Even if a woman has decided to make abortion, it's never the same thing that just to go to the hairdresser to decide to change its haircut: it's always traumatic.
So what is your purpose here: to add more guiltiness to the ones who had to take this so difficult decision?
Moreover, to chose Taty to be the Emblem of a such subject....sorry...but a lot of people have laughed and are still laughing about it...
It would have been more credible to chose Angelina Jolie to make a such clip than a singer who isn't even able to live under the same roof than her own child...there is a little problem here..
Each one has the full right to live the Life that he/she has chosen but to give Moral Lessons to other women about a such subject in such conditions is a little different... :(
I wish you the Best for your new album and thank you again for this post.
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| Buka
| Fri Apr 18 20:13:32 MSD 2008
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| ReturnToHades
| Sat Apr 19 21:07:14 MSD 2008
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| Buka
| Sun Apr 20 00:22:56 MSD 2008
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| ReturnToHades
| Sun Apr 20 10:06:37 MSD 2008
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| Buka
| Sun Apr 20 11:33:22 MSD 2008
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| ReturnToHades
| Sun Apr 20 20:26:57 MSD 2008
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| BlogNath
| Fri Apr 18 20:58:39 MSD 2008
Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
1/ It's difficult to compare Madonna and Tatu because the investments (money) aren't the same at all in the shows. This comparison with Madonna appeared on the forums because of the Pretentious Tone of the Girls who were promising wonderful album, wonderful shows as nobody has seen before.
So it was really a reaction against this Pretension.
2/ The comparison isn't really possible neither because Madonna is a Musician and an author. She was able to write some musics for her songs and a lot of lyrics. She has a message and a Personal Message...not something dictated by another person.
The third point...and may be the most important is the LOVE of the Music....this passion , you can feel it even in the way to speak of people who aren't musicians or author of their songs.
-If you ask to Madonna to speak about Music in general, she is able to have an interesting conversation.
-Now, check the interviews of the girls: if you ask them the singers they like and so on...they answer: "We aren't interested in others music..we are tatu with our own style"....and That's all!
Never some passionated comments about Music in general....in the interviews, Lena will say she loves to read, she loves the real Life, she loves to be with her friends...(I don't criticize that at all) and Yulia will speak about her boyfriend, about her dog...
The only moment when they speak about Music, it's when they announce that they are going to make a great show, a great album, a new clip...for the promotion..for their OWN promotion.
YOU NEVER FEEL THIS FULL LOVE FOR MUSIC IN THEIR WORDS.
Yulia has a passion for Fame...but does she get this same passion just for the Music like a lot of singers have?...I'm not so sure.
They were chosen for ATTSS and it was a good choice. Because it worked.
I, personally, keep in touch with Tatu, not because I like the persons, but because I Love their voices, their special sound.
But is it enough to be on stage?...
I think that this absence of REAL PASSION for the Music in general (you know when Music is "Vital" for somebody..) is something which is felt by the public on stage: I'm sure they have (at least Yulia) a great pleasure to be on stage but they are missing this real need of the music, this real love that you want to exchange with the public.
Love of the Fame & Love of the Music can be 2 different things.
Just be sure that there is nothing "nasty" in what I wrote here.
Just it's what I really feel.
Buka Re: Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
There is such a thing as team work, collaboration, contribution, and collective ideas. Simply because more than one person may be involved in the writing and creation of a message does not suddenly render one the mastermind and the other the puppet. There is always the possibility, and I personally believe a strong one, that Yulia and Lena do contribute their own ideas to their music. Who can say what the history is (well until Insider tells us). Even if they had absolutely no say in the original message or image of the group (and that wouldn’t be shocking, they were rather young), that does not mean that, through it all, they did not adopt the message as their own. And not because it was dictated to them, but because they found personal meaning in it.
Secondly…Madonna is older now. She is an icon. She could shit on stage and people would clap and cheer at her sheer audacity and strength of courage at overcoming such a social barrier. But when she was a young, fresh face…I’d say a lot of what she did had to do with image. I think it would be tough to say that she did it solely for the sake of art and music. And her image was genius, crafted to scandalize, push the boundaries. I actually think one could easily analogize Tatu to Madonna. Even more recently, do you think Madonna kissed Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera on stage to further her deep musician’s message? Doubtful. She’s a publicity genius, knew it would cause a stir and knew that she was standing with the Madonna’s of the new millennium (by fame if not substance).
Now, though it pains me to be negative about Tatu, :P I do have to agree that Yulia and Lena, when performing, sometimes lack a certain passion. I rarely feel like they get swept away by or lost in the music they sing. Now, there may be many reasons for this. Not everyone expresses passion in the same way. They may have a hard time letting themselves go, and losing sight of the audience…I don’t think I could ever feel that safe and free on a stage in front of hundreds of people, but that is me and I don’t think I could ever sing on stage either. One thing I have noticed is that there seemed to be more passion in the past. Again there may be many reasons for that. Because they now sing live, and because singing live may not be the easiest thing for them (but they’ll get flack no matter what they do – lip sync or sing live, they will never please everyone) they may be “thinking” so much, concentrating on performing and making sure their voices are in pitch and their timing is on, etc. That thinking can inhibit one’s ability to lose oneself to the music. But mainly, I think in the past, I saw them get lost in each other. I could sense that when they looked at each other, everything else would go away. Personally, I couldn’t give a shit less about dancing and lights and displays and interactions with the crowd. My favorite concerts were always the ones where Yulia and Lena seemed to ignore everyone but each other, joke with each other, wink at each other, whatever. But I don’t feel like they should do anything for me or anyone else that isn’t natural to them. Now, from a marketing standpoint, if their goal is to make money, that stage interaction seemed to work for a lot of people. Well, of course, part of that magic was thinking they were a couple in love, right? ;) Because then it was “cute” or “passionate.” Even as “just friends that love each other like family,” I’d rather see that than big lights and big displays, but that is probably just me. It seems super important to a lot of people…to the point of extreme anger, soo... It is just strange for me, because most of the artists I follow and concerts I have attended have the singer sitting in a chair playing a guitar and singing to a mic or not playing anything and just singing into a stationary mic. But then, I’ve never been one for big pop and fancy stage acts.
ReturnToHades Re: Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
To me the girls may not be musicians or lyricists, but they are entertainers and performers. They are providers of a form of artistic entertainment. The passion for music is not necessary, but any entertainer needs a passion. A passion for a cause, a passion for entertainment, something that is personal to them, something they can articulate on.
I do not think they lack any sort of passion. There are moments where they feel strongly about something that they evoke that into an interview or performance. What seems to be a problem is cohesiveness and consistency, it is too sporadic. They lack communicating their passion and reaching out to people, the ability to hit somebody with something and make them go wow. It comes with maturity. Madonna herself has come a long way from a rebellious material girl to someone who can communicate that inner passion in a way that connects with fans and broader people.
People like me are willing to take time to get a feel of what a music group is all about, but you are right in the sense that the average person will not do that sort of introspection, most people want that internal passion externalized so they can feel it. If many fans are feeling detached and lacking the passion then they still need to work on externalizing the internal fire.
Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
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Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
BlogNath Re: Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
By the way, what about the idea to begin to learn to read?...Help you: B+A=BA...Kiss in your neck.. ;)
Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
Re: ...читал форум, много думал. / …have read the forum ‘n’ thought a lot.
I’ve heard so many fans say that they wish management was more like a US management team. Those same people demand complete candor and openness and honesty. They want both of these things. I thought these people were entertainment industry connoisseurs? But I’ve always had the impression that, in the “real world” these demands are completely juxtaposed. Personally, I would far rather have a few flub ups, canceled gigs, and delays, in exchange for great music and a management that I can email and actually get a response from.
Not to psychoanalyze an entire fanbase, but I think that the problem with some people is that they are still angry at being disillusioned. Because the emotions went beyond the game, because it felt so real, because it wasn’t so obviously an emotionless machine to titillate men, the group attracted a lot of young girls who personally connected with the group. And, as you described, felt validated by it. There are so few open representations, not of lesbianism, but of true love between two females in this world, that those that are desperately seeking it in their lives – as young teens, whose futures are still so distant and scary--saw that it was possible, that it existed. Straight teens around the world have a million books and movies and fairytales to show them the romantic love that is waiting for them…some day. Unfortunately, even for those fans who were aware enough to realize that part of it all was just a game, just a show, just a way to make money… it was undeniable that Yulia and Lena had a palpable chemistry that can be sensed by anyone who chooses to feel it or see it.
But then Tatu grew up. And while, for some fans, the disappointment may be at the fact that Tatu is not longer a teen group with schoolgirl image and angst, there are also those that are disappointed for a more substantial reason. For those that felt validated by the Tatu of young angst, are now exposed to a Tatu that comprises of two upright citizens, who, like all good women, eventually turned to men. They got over that silly phase -- that phase that served to prepare them for the true and real love of a man.
And unfortunately, this impression serves to undermines everything that many people finally saw validated. It may have even been humiliating for some fans, because many could point to tatu and say see, real love…only now they must point and say…well, yes…they grew out of it… I mean, they still love each other…just in the “proper” way now...
I have to admit, I am sometimes bummed by this. But I think the difference for me and, perhaps, some fans, is that I don’t blame Tatu for that disappointment. That’s life, and that is who they are or at least how they want to present themselves to the world. And I have no reason to expect them to be something they are not to fulfill some idle fantasy of mine. Rather, I think my disappointment more accurately reflects something lacking in society. That I, as a woman who loves another woman, am that desperate to have representation, to have movies and books and songs that speak to my specific life experiences. What lesbian art there is, often bores the shit out of me. The L Word? Is that really the best we’ve got? Shitty movie after shitty low budget movie…*cries* Anyway…
So, sure, rationally, one should easily be able to see that simply because Yulia and Lena happened to fall in the category of women who, after their teenage angst years, realized men were more for them (assuming that is true in and of itself), that doesn’t mean they betrayed or lied to us all. Unfortunately, reason doesn’t always rule one’s actions. Many people probably don’t even realize they have some resentment or bitterness for Tatu within them. They stick around because, as angry as they may be, they are still attached, they still love the music, and because maybe, just maybe, one day everything will be validated again. Maybe two teenage girls can fall in love and it can last (of course, in reality, 90% of all teenage romances fail – regardless of gender).
And then, there are also people who are unable to grasp the notion that what was once real may no longer be real, but that doesn’t make what came before a “lie.” And many of these people simply can’t get over their anger and humiliation at being duped. They don’t want to trust anything because they don’t want to get their hopes up or to be humiliated again.
And, lastly, many people STILL see and feel the chemistry, and rather than appreciating it for being part of Tatu’s charm, to them it is a slap in the face. It is a constant reminder that there can be a fine line between a loving friendship and romance and watching Tatu just makes them feel even more blurry and confused. They see contradicting behavior, because so many people need labels and need people to fit into those categories. When they don’t, they feel like they are being manipulated, lie to, tricked, etc.
I don’t envy your position. Because yes, good business sense would tell you, you don’t want to shoot your buyers in the face. At the same time, you are not selling tires, you are selling art. People get into art for two primary reasons, money and creative expression. Even if something starts off as a money making scheme, if an artist suddenly starts to feel like a prostitute and wants to focus more on creative expression, that is their right. However, people expect them to continue to whore themselves out. And unlike a strictly commercial venture, when “art” is the motivating factor, the only money an artist probably ideally seeks is the money necessary to allow the artist to continue to practice their art. They want more listeners or readers because they want to touch more people, affect the world more strongly. So sure, to the extent necessary to continue creating your art and putting food on your table, you have to rely on the buyers, the industry, the media, angry, bitter fans, giddy, obsessive fans.
And it sucks because I know you would love to implement those brilliant ideas for a show concert with big lights and awesome displays. But all of that takes money. And money requires ass kissing. And ass kissing requires some degree of forfeiting your ideals and artistic freedom. So you are stuck between pleasing us and yourselves with the most astounding shows, the best videos, etc. – all requiring money, money, money, -- and gaining artistic freedom from the shackles of a money hungry labels.
Society, especially capitalistic society, is not designed to serve and protect the artistic (unless of course you are a lucky inventor and can get your own patent – but, sadly, 9 times out of 10, the corporation you work for will receive that patent and give you a big thumbs up and a paltry bonus in comparison).
As for everyone’s obsession with labels…I swear, you people will never be happy. First you bitch about FOF being a single and Gomenasai, that those were horrible decisions and will be the destruction of Tatu…as everything is. Then you bitch about Tatu management and how it would be much better if it was run by a money making machine that couldn’t give a rats ass what an artist’s ambitions are, so long as they make them money. Entertainment law is filled with cases on artists desperately trying to free themselves from oppressive label contracts. New artists have no leverage and are completely taken advantage of by big labels. But artists take the sacrifice, because the most important thing to them is to be heard and to be able to continue their art. And, the lucky few who make it big enough to finally have the leverage to negotiate for a better contract would be stupid not to break from that label. Unfortunately, for Tatu, they probably aren’t big enough at this point to have leverage against a big label. They would still be screwed over. However, they have enough fame and momentum to be able to carry themselves. Sure, they may not have the same depth of resources as a big label. But that is assuming that label pays them any attention – because trust me, if you don’t make enough revenue, labels will ignore you and fail to promote you, thus lowering your revenue even further and dooming you to failure. Because at that point, you are stuck under them, you can promote yourself and you are dependent on a machine that has no interest in you. I have to think that, while things may be a little tougher and resources may be tighter, Tatu is far better off being free from that shackle.
And I would think that by now fans would know that the group is resilient. If all the fans who feel the incessant need to bitch about everything only tried to be a little optimistic and supportive, they could be Tatu’s best opportunity at continued success. I mean, if the people who are supposed to love them the most are the ones destroying them the most… talk about taking a part in Tatu’s demise. How can such fans then have the audacity to give advice on how to “save” Tatu? Tearing someone down is not the way to save them, at least not in my experience… and the collective experience of thousands of years of human existence…
The bottom line…people will always find something to bitch about. And those that complain are the loudest. For every person who hates such and such, there is another person who loves such and such. I personally have no problem with concerts. Lights and displays sound nice. But if Tatu dances routines, I might cry, lol. But a lot of people love that stuff. Now, magic tricks…that would be cool. Or maybe you could do something along the line of Cirque du Soleil. And please no back track, ick. I want real singing as they do contortionist moves. *sigh* That would be impressive. And, I’m sorry, but I won’t be completely satisfied with Tatu until I see that. And I will bitch about you not doing it until I get my way or you quit from frustration at your inability to please me.
I think it is awesome that you guys care about making Tatu the best it can be while also trying to maintain as much creative autonomy as possible. It is commendable and impressive. And I’ve impressed and hope that you will get the credit you deserve for all the work you’ve done to communicate directly with fans. How many groups have management explaining internal motivations and problems and hopes? I doubt very many, at least not many groups with Tatu’s level of success, fame, and volume of fans.
